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You sometimes wonder about complacency,

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and I don't mean complacency on the name change but just complacency on what students can do and how students can be involved in helping set direction and set policy.

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Again you've got to remember the setting. This was pre-. Campus protests weren't known in the early '60s.

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Campus protests came later. There weren't student representatives on the board of trustees or whatever.

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Dean Stewart told me one day, he said, "You know we spend the first two years trying to kind of help you figure out what you're doing and the next two years nobody listens to you, but then you're gone."

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And he didn't mean it to be as flippant as I just said it but he just, you know, there's this constant churn and so you can only stay connected with the students for so long and then they move on.

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So there was a certain complacency. I worried sometimes if that was a part of the DNA at NC State at that time versus some other campuses.

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I don't know if I'm right or wrong.